“Tissue turgor” and pink elephants: about Y Combinator (DRAFT)

DRAFT! Work in progress! Feedback welcome

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One advantage startups have over established companies is that there are no discrimination laws about starting businesses. For example, I would be reluctant to start a startup with a woman who had small children, or was likely to have them soon. But you’re not allowed to ask prospective employees if they plan to have kids soon. Whereas when you’re starting a company, you can discriminate on any basis you want about who you start it with.

— Y Combinator founder Paul Graham, in How to Start a Startup

Christopher Steiner’s The Disruptor in the Valley in Forbes discusses how this essay, along with Paul’s Harvard talk, eventually inspired red-hot technology incubator YC. He doesn’t include this quote, alas, and also doesn’t mention the reports in the Mercury News and Wall Street Journal of YCs #diversityfail or Tereza Nemessanyi’s XX Combinator.  I guess they didn’t fit  in with the article’s subtitle: “Paul Graham’s Y Combinator has stormed Silicon Valley and pioneered a better way to build a company.”

YC has indeed had a huge impact.   Christopher reports that YC typically puts about $15-$20K into the companies in return for a 5% equity stake; with over 400 companies in their portfolio they’re a powerful force in the tech startup world.  With the help of a lot of gushing coverage in the TechCrunch and their buddies in the tech press, 30 of their of the 36 startups in the most recent crop incubator have gotten funding since Demo Day in August, many of them over $1 million.   Collusion is soooo hot these days so it’s as good a time for a fluff piece as any.

Paul’s The New Funding Landscape predicts that the cozy win/win/win dynamics will continue for a while:

The super-angels will try to undermine the VCs by acting faster, and the VCs will try to undermine the super-angels by driving up valuations. Which for founders will result in the perfect combination: funding rounds that close fast, with high valuations.

It’s such a perfect combination for the overhelmingly white male worlds of tech founders, incubators like YC and TechStars, angel and “super-angel” investors (many of them ex-entrepreneurs), VCs, and the tech press that covers it all that recently people have started to question whether it’s a bubble.  Paul thinks not, and the word doesn’t come up in Christopher’s article.

There’s plenty of good stuff though.  Jessica Mah, co-founder and CEO of inDinero and several other YC entrepeneurs have some good perspectives.*  There’s also a nice description of how the YC mafia protect and collaborate with each other and “regard Graham as their sensei”.  Greg from YC investor Sequoia Capital, TechCrunch’s Michael, and AngelGate bad and good guys “foul-mouth Dave” and Ron (who’s invested in 20 YC companies and helped Michael sell out to AOL ) all illustrate this nicely in the article, sharing different ways YC is great.  The early reviews on Hacker News, one of the hubs of the community, laud the article as a great portrait of Paul and praise him for “giving back to the community in such a sustainable, profitable way.”

portrait of Paul Graham

The Big Interview describes a key part of the YC selection process: the hot 10-minute session founders go through with all five partners bearing down and asking questions at the same time.  And no proprietries!  What does Paul look for?

“Tissue turgor.”

It really paints a picture of the so many meetings in the high-tech world: a multi-way competition showing off whose smartest and most powerful and who’s got the balls, people with the power ganging up on somebody looking for help, sadism masked with “it’s for your own good.”  If YC really feels so terrible about seeing founders’ hands shaking during the interview, why not create a less hostile environment?

Paul contributes a side-bar, the all-male What it takes (also posted as What We Look for in Founders).  It’s a very interesting ad, making it clear to founders and investors what YC is selecting and training for. The ideal YC founders are cockroach-like in their determination,** ready to give up on their dreams, intelligent, and naughty. They care about “big moral questions”, but aren’t into “observing proprietries.” They delight in breaking rules, although of course not “rules that matter” to Paul.

Unfortunately there isn’t any discussion the implications of these criteria.  For example, the YC universe now has hundreds of companies trained in an overwhelmingly-male environment that legitimizes discrimination against women.  Maybe for them this isn’t a big moral question and all stuff about equality is just rules that don’t matter, but others disagree.   What impact does this have on the tech scene as a whole?  As women in technology continue to improve their skills in highlighting discrimination, and other incubators emerge, what are the likely implications for YC?

pink elephantsAnd speaking of pink elephants, there’s a huge collective blindspot here.  YC’s companies, selected on the basis of criteria that favor young guys and with the mindset that discrimination against women is a competitive advantage, get great training in what it takes to build a product and a business.  Then they’re covered by the overwhelmingly-male tech and business press, funded by the overwhelmingly male super-angel and VC worlds, and acquired by companies run and owned mostly by guys those same angels and VCs have invested in.  Lucky founders then share their wisdom with and invest in the next generation of startups.  Repeat.

You don’t by any chance think they’re collectively missing most of the best opportunities?

As Cindy Gallop says, guys talking to guys about guys create a closed loop where what passes for innovative becomes increasingly less and less so.  Paul’s comments about VCs in footnote 3 of “The New Funding Landscape” apply just as well to YC’s current success:

They could make it self-perpetuating if they used it to get all the best new startups. But I don’t think they’ll be able to. To get all the best startups, you have to do more than make them want you. You also have to want them; you have to recognize them when you see them, and that’s much harder.

Indeed.  YC has gender bias and other forms of discrimination institutionalized so deeply in their culture and their selection criteria that it’ll be a very disruptive “pivot”.  And probably very entertaining, too!

Update, Jan 2011: Dynamite conclusion still needed :-)  See the comments for observations about Hacker News since the original draft.

* although as I discuss at somewhat greater length in a comment in Tissue turgor and Y Combinator’s secret sauce, it would have been great to hear from other women too.  Most glaringly, Jessica Livingston is Y Combinator co-founder and married to him and she doesn’t even get a quote and a sidebar?   It also would have been nice to hear from Amanda Peay of Message Party, author of I’m a Female YC Founder and You Can Be Too.

** more on founders as cockroaches in Liz Gannes’ summary of the recent YC startup school on GigaOm. Congrats to GigaOm for closing another $2.5 million in funding in a very cluttered space .   And while we’re at it, congrats to Liz who along with Ina Fried is joining All Things Digital.

Image credit: Pink Elephants by Rakka, via Flickr, licensed under Creative Commons


Comments

64 responses to ““Tissue turgor” and pink elephants: about Y Combinator (DRAFT)”

  1. Every Hacker News member has a popularity rating (also known as karma), based on the number of times people have voted for and against your posts and comments. The right to downvote a comment is reserved to people who have been on HN a while. It used to be that you could downvote once your karma was 200; alas, just as I neared the 200 mark, they changed the bar to 500. No downvoting for me!

    Recently, there’s been a chunk discussion of the TSA: pilots pushing back against the choices between a strip search and groping, EPIC’s lawsuit, etc. So when Deborah wrote an excellent “what you can do” blog post, I thought it was worth posting to HN. It quickly got enough votes to make it to the front page, and then the pushback started: RiderOfGiraffes announced he’d be “flagging” posts about the TSA, and suddenly all my comments started getting downvoted. My karma took a hit.

    I asked the community how I should respond, and got a couple of interesting responses. Here’s some of what nkurz had to say:

    I would suggest that you either adjust to the norms of this site by writing fewer higher quality responses into which you put greater thought. This page is currently dominated by short posts that you seem to have made in rapid succession.

    I think you’d get a better response if you followed the punctuation and capitalization standards that the established users if this site employ. You may note that yours are the only nonstandard posts on this page. An all lowercase post would have to be quite extraordinary before I would upvote it.

    Given Paul’s point about “breaking the rules, just not the ones that matter,” I expressed my astonishment to me that people downvote a post based on something so superficial. The response:

    For the capitalization, well, it’s not that a high school dropout with a purple mohawk can’t get venture funding, but that they’d better have a stunningly good idea. The MBA with a suit probably gets more leeway if the plan isn’t as stellar. I think a better point might be “Break only the rules that matter”. Why bother handicapping yourself if it doesn’t?

  2. YC just added a couple more partners, Paul Buchheit and Harj Taggar. Here was my comment

    congrats to Y Combinator, Paul, and Harj.

    it’s an interesting choice to reinforce the demographic biases rather than trying to counter them. when you decided to add two partners, did you consider any women?

    YuriNiyazov responded

    I don’t think that’s how it works. YC didn’t decide that ‘its time to add two partners’ and then start looking for candidates. What actually happened is that there were people who were already acting like partners in everything but title, and this is just a formalization of that.

    His comment got 18 points (upvotes minus downvotes).

    Mine: -2.

    HN folks like to pride themselves on being evidence-based, so I replied with a quote from an LA Times interview with one of the new partners talking about how YC had actually approached him a while ago — contradicting Yuri. The results?

    -2 for this comment as well. Sigh.

    As jodrellblank said in a reply to my original question

    Why are you downvoting such a good point? It’s an often repeated idea around here that you should partner up with people who add things to your company that you don’t add yourself, so “we met and liked him instantly” should be a warning flag to consider that you might be doing what feels good not what will help most.

    YC might have considered or not, but don’t downvote someone for asking, eh?

    Well said. About those collective blindspots …

  3. Srunchup: the web magazine for young designers and developersThe HN thread discussing Anna Debenham’s excellent Srunchup article Ageism highlights another dimension of HN’s anti-diversity attitude. Anna combined her and others’ personal experiences, along with survey data from A List Apart, and makes a compelling case about the challenges young designers face. For example

    I’ve experienced age bias a lot more since I started speaking. I’ve also experienced a lot more sexist comments directed at me, but that doesn’t bother me as much because there are so many people who are aware of it and will call them out on it.

    What frustrates me the most is that there are people who won’t even bother to listen to what I’m talking about, and will judge purely on appearances.

    When I checked the HN discussion, the top-ranked comment included this:

    Your graph shows that 47% of under 18’s think people are ageist against them. Of course they do. Young people are often unaware of the value that experience brings…. What I would be really interested to read is a follow up to this article in 15 years when you have the experience of age and can write from both sides of the fence. Keep your notes from this article and compare it with how you feel when you are 35 looking back at cocky teenage coders who think they know everything.

    I objected:

    saying “you’re too young to have a valid opinion on this, come back when you’re older” is a good example of ageist attitudes

    its popularity here shows how endemic ageism is even on HN

    of course designers and programmers in their teens have a lot to learn. so do designers and programmers in their 20s … 30s … 40s … 50s … that doesn’t invalidate their opinions.

    And immediately got downvoted — making my point for me.

  4. Hacker News: SubmitLong-time HN’er Matt Maroon’s I Quit Hacker News cites a bunch of reasons for his decisions. For example: people misusing downvoting to mean disagreement instead of value, the predictability of comments on so many topics, the naivite of the ideology, the way the community as a whole is snobbish and out of touch. All of which I agree with. But it was his number one reason that sparked by far the most discussion:

    Lack of a down-vote means vocal minorities are disproportionately represented. How many Hacker News users really want to see 5 stories about the TSA body scanners every time they log in? It doesn’t matter, because as long as 10% of them up-vote every story on the topic it’s going to flood the top page with them until they move on to something else.

    Right. Heaven forbid that minorities should be able to discuss topics they’re interested in.

    There’s some good stuff in the discussion, including various suggestions for how simple tweaks in the software could let people who aren’t interested in a particular topic avoid seeing it. Most of it, though, focused on the TSA topics. I waded into it and my popularity took a beating — for example in this interaction:

    tptacek (10 points): The TSA posts are manifestly off topic:

    Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they’re evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they’d cover it on TV news, it’s probably off-topic.

    me (3 points): the TSA posts are also potentially examples of “anything that good hackers would find interesting”. the story about the guy not going through the scanners coming back into the country is a classic example of a hack. the excellent comment by ‘aphyr on the radiation post was enormously technically interesting. etc. etc.

    tptacek (8 points): The problem with this is, “anything good hackers would find interesting” is the rule that allows ‘carbocation to comment here about the molecular biology of human metabolism on HuffPo stories about high-fructose corn syrup, and you want that to happen. But it’s also the rule that allows whole comment threads consisting of nothing but people quoting Ben Franklin and the 4th Amendment at each other on TSA stories, to no end….”Anything that good hackers would find interesting” is a norm that is being abused.

    me (-4 points): but i could make the same argument that “avoid politics” is being abused by people who for whatever reason don’t want to see stories about clever hacks or problems with startup life that happen to be related to travel

    tptacek (8 points): Don’t be disingenuous. I’ve been reading the TSA stories; the TSA is a political topic that happens to bait me very effectively. These discussions are not about the impact of the TSA on startups.

    Eventually Paul Graham weighed in.

    I do believe the TSA stories represent a danger ...

    Interesting. Enough people in the community want to discuss the TSA that the stories making it to the front page even despite the penalty and people with a policy of flagging all of them. And rather than giving people options to choose the stories they’re not interested in, Paul silently modified the algorithm to remove stories he sees as a danger. Good to know.

    Alas, Paul didn’t reply to my follow-on question (which of course immediately got voted down, although later recovered a little). Somebody else did, though, and I think he captured the attitude large segments of the HN community have towards conformity very nicely.

    Every HN guideline matters


    Update, November 2013: How Hacker News ranking really works: scoring, controversy, and penalties and the accompanying HN discussion explore the algorithm, including the penalty given to discussions of the NSA.

  5. Ha. I just checked Hacker News, and the top story is Bruce Schneier’s 2006 Refuse to be Terrorized.

    Yeah really.

  6. On TechCrunch, Leena Rao reports

    Startup incubator Y Combinator has announced this morning that it is partnering with Yodlee, the provider of personal financial management an payments data to give the incubator’s startups access to Yodlee’s technology.

    With the new partnership, companies in each Y Combinator funded class will be able to tap into Yodlee’s firehose of financial account and transaction data through the platform. Four Y-Combinator-funded startups, Indinero, WePay, FutureAdvisor, and ReadyForZero; are already using Yodlee’s technologies.

    Seems like a great deal, and a huge business advantage for all these companies that believe it’s okay to discriminate. Leena also notes

    Y Combinator has struck similar technology deals with Twitter (for stream access), Justin.tv (for live video), and Facebook.

  7. In a discussion of conference anti-harassment policies follower commented that Potentially “being different” in addition to standing up and out can be a daunting prospect.. JonnieCache dismised this as “laughable considering how much talk there is in the hacker world of defying convention, challenging conventional wisdom, standing out from the crowd, changing the world and associated platitudes.” Unsurprisingly, I saw things differently:

    There’s a lot of talk about this in the hacker world. The reality is that some kinds of “different” are seen as just fine, and others have major social consequences.

    If you’re a guy, try wearing hot pink jeans and shoes, a lavender femme-looking unisex top, and nail polish to a tech conference and see how the other guys react. It’s eye-opening.

    To which he replied

    Nobody is going to react well to hot pink jeans, regardless of their genital category.

    Looking at the voting … follower’s original post got 2 points; JohnnieCache’s and my first response were at 5 points; our second points were at 3 and 4 respectively. It’s a small data set, but what I come away thinking is that half the guys on HN wouldn’t react well to hot pink jeans on a guy. How non-conformist!

  8. y combinator logoIn a discussion of Anonymous stops dropping DDoS bombs, starts dropping science, there was some discussion of gendered language in their call to action. An excerpt:

    Seth_Kriticos: Oh come on, the ‘gentelman’ is referring to the spirit of the statement, is a figure of speech and does not refer to any gender at all. In the concept of Anonymous there are no genders, faces or names, all are equal.

    If they’d start to bend it to contemporary political correctness, it would loose it’s meaning.

    russellallen: “In the concept of Anonymous there are no genders, faces or names, all are equal.”

    Sounds ghastly.

    Edit:

    Lol, so I’m at 0.

    me: Yeah, I always get voted down when I bring stuff like that up.

    EDIT: downvoted. quelle surprise.

  9. In a discussion about Why intelligent communities will always fail, nhangen comments:

    What happens to online communities over time is the same that happens in any social organization. A few, more aggressive and hardcore members gain the power to snuff out dissenting viewpoints and opinions, thus overwriting any chance for diversity or originality.

    To make matters worse, those that use downvoting systems wind up alienating new users that can’t seem to figure out the “game.” Those without voting systems use humor, belittlement, and castigation to do the same.

    In the end, the scene is controlled by those holding a majority opinion, and any objectionable opinion is pushed out. This happens in any community, whether it’s your local church, a football forum, or a place like HN. Where they fail in terms of diversity, they succeed for the group that holds the power.

    I replied something along the lines of “sounds like HN to me.”

  10. UX Magazine logoIn a discussion about UX Magazine’s User Experience for Developers, I commented:

    Is it my imagination or is every single person mentioned in the article a guy?

    wushupork (aka Pek Pongpaet) replied

    It didn’t even occur to me there was a gender bias when I wrote this article but you are right.

    which as you can imagine delighted me no end. But guess what?

    My comment was downvoted anyhow.

  11. y combinator logoSpeaking of getting downvoted, here was another one that cracked me up. It started with a sycophantic post by new YC partner Paul (ex-Google, ex-Friendfeed, ex-Facebook) Beucheit about how great a company Google was for various reasons, starting with …

    1 – They take big risks. People often point to projects such as Wave as evidence that Google has “lost its magic” or something. To me, it’s evidence that they are still willing to take risks on new ideas and new ways of doing things

    On HN, mattmanser commented:

    I think equating Wave to a ‘big’ risk is a bit much, financially there was no risk. All they lost was face.

    Paul’s reply

    your notion that “Wave was not a risk” is similarly mistaken. The opportunity cost of having a large team of smart people working for several years is enormous.

    At which point I jumped in with:

    There’s a big difference between “opportunity cost” and “risk”. Wave had huge potential upside and I completely agree that it’s a good example of Google looking to go big; but they approached it in a risk-averse way, and it didn’t work out.

    The voting?

    Paul’s original article: 314 points
    Matt’s comment: 6
    Paul’s reply: 38
    me: 0

    Because heaven forbid anybody should point out that one of the guys running YC is confusing two basic business concepts.

  12. In a thread on a rape survivor being arrested after refusing a patdown led to a question on why this is an interesting phenomenon (as opposed to reposting interesting 5- to 10-year old essays from guys, which seems to be accepted de facto as “news”). here was my reply:

    One interesting phenomenon here is people standing up against rape culture.

    Another, more generally on the TSA activism, is abuse survivors, Muslins, Sikhs, transgendered people, moms and computer security experts, as well as civil liberties and privacy organizations organizing and standing up for civil liberties.

    Somewhat surprisingly I got upvoted — but the thread still got killed. I guess civil liberties are particularly threatening on Hacker News if they involve a challenge to rape culture.

  13. […] my comic novel-in-progress. The scene’s set on a discussion forum that’s modeled after Hacker News: startup founder: ladzzz.com is like Quora meets Foursquare with questions guys want to know […]

  14. A CoderStack article looking at gender differences between math, IT, and computing in UK teens sparked an entertaining discussion on HN, including this:

    Conclusion: they should stay in the kitchen

    Yeah really. For example here’s what yummyfajitas had to say.

    an unproven assumption

    So I jumped in.

    yummyfajitas doesn't understand ad-hominem

    Looks like yummyfajitas (aka Chris Stuccio, Postdoctoral Instructor at NYU’s Courant Institute) doesn’t understand the definition of “ad hominem” argument. Yes, I am saying that a guy saying that it’s an open question whether women are as intelligent as men is an example of a sexist and self-serving attitude. It’s not an “argument” of any kind, it’s definitional. And it’s not “ad hominem” because it’s about the attitude rather than the person. Sheesh. What are they teaching post-docs these days?

    There’s lots of funny stuff elsewhere in the thread too. My karma took a small hit, but it was well worth it.


    March 2014: yummyfajitas is still around Hacker News, and recently garnered comments was named Model, View, Culture’s HN Comment of the week

  15. anti-gay too

    Meanwhile, on Twitter:

    an entertaining/depressing #diversityfailSomehow I didn't manage to lose any karma today in that threadskud and starkness weigh in

  16. Karma is interesting. The geek manifestations of myself typically get upvoted because of geek groupthink, but the anti-sexist manifestations of myself typically get downvoted because of sexist-male groupthink.

    Given that I share certain values with others on HN, I agree with nkurz, but not for the “purple mohawk” reason. HN doesn’t want to be like reddit, and we want quality over quantity. I think HN has already jumped the shark a while ago, but I think the “broken window” theory works for online comments, and acceptance of free-form comments can spiral into badly-spelled and poorly thought-out comments.

    Yes, when I clicked on the pushback link, your lack of capitalization hurt my eyes, and I might just be trying to rationalize my aesthetic preferences, but … I think clear communication and writing are very important, and a good writer writes for the reader, not for herself, meaning that you shouldn’t write in a lazy way without capitalization, as it’s more difficult for the reader. Additionally, not everyone on the Internet speaks English as a first language, so punctuating properly and writing proper sentences would aid in communicating to a larger audience.

  17. Thanks for the comment, Restructure. I have similar experiences with comments – plus I get downvoted for activism stuff too. Oh well, it comes with the territory.

    Overall I’ve got mixed feelings about the quality of comments on HN. There are some truly outstanding ones; but there’s also a lot of incorrect statements made very forcefully, opinion described as fact, veiled attacks, power games, deference to famous commenters, etc. etc. When it’s a topic that I know something about, I’m frequently struck by how bad the voting is — a couple of recent examples are the Drake equation and Tunisian Facebook activists. Overall it’s a much higher-noise experience for me than I remember Slashdot being for several at its height. More accuratly Slashdot had waaaaay more noise comments, but was a good experience browsing with Score >= 4.

    > I think clear communication and writing are very important, and a good writer writes for the reader, not for herself, meaning that you shouldn’t write in a lazy way without capitalization, as it’s more difficult for the reader.

    It’s a good point about how all-lower-case text may be harder for some people to read. On HN, I do it because trying to intentionally stand out from the others and get readers out of their usual cognitive zone at least a little — a pure-text equivalent of the way Brecht’s musical theater company used to intentionally sing against the beats for City of Mahogany. Also, aesthetically I personally consider lower-case more aesthetic.

    I can see certainly prefer why people might not like all-lower-case post, but it seems a stretch to go from there to a downvote. To me that seems like paying more attention to form rather than content, and applying a different standard (downvoting because this post could be better, as opposed to downvoting beause it doesn’t add value to the discussion). But, reasonable minds differ. One of my takeaways from the discussion was to use correct capitalization on comments where I actually cared about whether or not I was upvoted, so it’s good learning on my part.

  18. Also …

    > a good writer writes for the reader, not for herself

    I’m on HN as an activist and an entrepreneur; so I’m writing for particular purposes. In HN’s role as “the new Slashdot”, is there a way to leverage if for civil liberties activism? As somebody who will probably do another startup, how can I effectively use it to get visibility in HN’s audience? And as somebody who’s looking for business opportunities, what do YC’s and HN’s shared blind spots reveal about where I should be looking?

    Of course I also want to please my readers by informing and entertaining them, but those aren’t my only goals.

  19. Interesting. If I didn’t know the comment you showed me and your replies came from you, I would think this person was “trolling”. I’ve been called a troll, too, for speaking against the status quo, so I don’t mean to suggest that perception of “trolling” is objective.

    Ideally, I don’t want non-tech discussion mixed in with “Hacker News”, because I find that off-topic discussion is more likely to have sexism and assumptions about a common meatspace state of being (male, white, etc.).

  20. Thanks again for response, Restructure … a great conversation!

    I can see why people would take my comment as trolling. Wikipedia’s definition of a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.” Of course, “on-topic” is subjective — more on that in the next comment.

    Top referrersIn terms of intent …

    The screenshot on the right is a great example of Hacker News as a platform for civil liberties activism. During Get FISA Right’s Super Bowl Sunday Make some noise against the Patriot Act campaign. Hacker News was the second biggest source of traffic, primarily from from a comment I left in very popular thread. It wasn’t even a great comment — I think it only got two votes. From an activist’s perspective, imagine the impact of getting a link on the front page of Hacker News at the right time. Just like Slashdot, Reddit, and occasionally even Digg, it should be a valuable platform for privacy and civil rights.

    For the last prong of the troll definition, well, yeah, I am trying to provoke both an intellectual and emotional response — as I do with most things I write. I want people on HN to intellectually realize that it’s important for them to get involved with this issue, and feel increasingly ashamed and defensive when they don’t.

    So when you add it all up, it’s either a novel approach to social media strategy and grassroots activism as performance art … or trolling. Or both, I suppose.

    In terms of non-tech vs. tech discussions, from my perspective the sexism is pervasive … unsurprisingly, given Paul Graham’s views and the presence of hundreds of companies who have been trained in the belief that discrimination against women is a business advantage. And there’s plenty of other assumptions about common meatspaces state of mind in the tech threads that I find just as odious: techie-elitist, privileged, heteronormative, ageist, anti-privacy, unwilling to challenge dominance structures.

    So one way to try to change that — or at least to make contact with the people there who don’t want it to be that way — is to broaden the discussion and include meta issues. I wonder if at some level this is why Paul Graham sees civil liberties as such a danger.

  21. asmosoinio possted Why I stopped travelling to the US and largely stopped doing business in the US to HN, got a couple hundred votes and sparked another firestorm of controversy. The top comment is by edw519 (karma 49228) saying “I have bit my tongue for a long time about this great community’s slipping quality, but honestly, how does shit like this make it to the top of Hacker News. Flagged.” The reply is by tptacek (karma 57896) vehmemently agreeing, once again saying we shouldn’t talk about TSA issues, and complaining about groupthink. davidw (karma 21912) chimes in, thanking edw519 for breaking the rules by flagging it and saying something. And so it goes.

    But not everybody saw it that way.

    Working in the tech field often means travelling to the States.Given that the US is largely considered the most entrepreneurial country in the world, I think this is relevant.Business travel to the US is extremely relevant for anyone working in hi-tech.I'm getting the feeling that some of you get offended by critique, justified or not, of some of US politics.I have to admit, as difficult as it is, he makes a good point here.I will tell another personal experience.I am a Russian citizen living in EU. I generally avoid trips to US.even with the green card the hassles at the border are just nasty regardless of where I've been or for how long.wonder how much longer it will take before americans get enough to take a stand about this.

    As part of the discussion, Luc had a plausible suggestion for what people who thought the site wa going downhill to do. For once, tptacek and I agree:

    Band together (e.g. private mailing list) with like-minded people until the culture has changedI'm pretty sure we'll lose the arms race on organized voting.Maybe it's time to accept it.

  22. At least for me, Paul’s latest experiment really reduced Hacker News’ value, so I’m spending much less time there. But the underlying question of how political the site should be is still being fought out. With the Obama administration proposing the “IP PROTECT” internet censorship act up in Congress and other stories like PATRIOT Act renewal and the key role web 2.0 startup NationBuilder in the Scottish elections, there continue to be a trickle of political stories on the front page. In a thread on Whatever happened to the no-politics rule?”, top-ranked YC commenter tptacek suggested one of the reasons:

    And, there's a tier of

    Hmm, I wonder who he’s talking about?

    Hiiii!!!!!! (Waves)

    It’s a tricky situation. As tptacek says, the site was conceived back in 2007 as “Reddit without the noise” by a bunch of people who saw politics, civil liberties, and cat pictures as noise. As the site’s become successful and an entree into the world of YCombinator and friends, it’s attracted a lot of people — many of whom see civil liberties (including being able to travel by air without being groped) as very relevant to our day-to-day entrepenurial lives.

    And even more importantly, the world has changed since 2007. In the US, there’s Startup America (high-profile government support for entrepeneurship) and the entrepeneurial community is attempting to organize for the Startup Visa Act. Less positively, domain seizures, IP PROTECT, the aftermath of Wikileaks, and increased use of National Security Letters and gag orders make civil liberties be a key business concerns for every web-based startup conversely. Internationally, Arab Spring highlights entrepeneurs’ and new technology’s role in politics, and Falun Gong’s lawsuit against Cisco shows new categories of risks for companies.

    So HN either will have to evolve to see these kinds of political issues as within scope, or lose relevancy to a lot of entrepeneurs — and contribute to a collective blindspot for YC companies.

  23. Two white guys: Charlie Rose interviews Paul Graham at TechCrunch Disrupt

    Graham says that when people come to him and say they’ve got a great idea, his first response is, “Tell me about your cofounders”…. “There are some people who just get what they want in the world. If you want to start a startup you have to be one of those people. You can’t be passive and wishy-washy,” Graham says.

    Y Combinator’s Paul Graham: We’re Looking For People Like Us, Jason Kincaid, TechCrunch

    Graham tends not to pay too much attention to a candidate or team’s business plan—it’s likely to change during the course of the program anyway. Instead, he zeros in on the character and intelligence of the applicants. After one team’s presentation, Buchheit says that he would use the product. But Graham is skeptical. “Are these guys winners?” he asks. “It’s all about the guys.”

    Y Combinator Is Boot Camp for Startups, Steven Levy, Wired

  24. Hi Paul,

    I’ve got a great idea for the beverage industry, which uses toxic sweetners like aspertame, (known to cause brain cancer, but the FDA aproved it anway), splenda, made from chlorine, and nutrasweet. I know of a great non toxic sweetner that isnt being utilized.

    Thanks,
    Julia

  25. dead thread about the TSA on Hacker News

    You’d think that the federal government threatening to shut off all flights to and from Texas would meet Hacker News’ guideline “of interest to hackers” (at least the ones in or doing business with people in Texas — or New York, where they’re talking about passing a similar local ordinance). And you’d be right: this story was in the top ten when I checked HN this morning even despite getting an automatic penalty because it had TSA in the title. When I went back, though, it was marked as [dead] … flagged, presumably, by the lolcat brigade of tptaceck and friends.

  26. redpill27 put together a nice “best of” site, making it easy to see the highest-rated comments for any user. Here’s a few other reactions:

    Shamiq: I don't like my top comments at all.
    trickjarrett: my top comments were on the whole, rather forgettable.
    hugh3: Apparently the best thing I've ever said was a complaint about an inaccurate headline.
    swombat: I'm kind of disappointed: most of my highest-voted comments are short and snappy.
    seems that HN users tend to reward quick

    Here’s my top-rated comments. Unsurprisingly, there’s nothing in my top 20 about the TSA, civil liberties, or diversity anywhere near the top — or for that matter software engineering. Looks like I don’t align all that well with the HN zeitgeist.

  27. rachelsklar: I think YC missed an opportunity to skate where the puck is going & be forward looking.....but next time, they will have this response to remember, and also, the puck will be there.

    Looks like my response to Welcome Sam, Garry, Emmett, and Justin, announcing Y Combinator’s four new partners, once again didn’t align with the HN zeitgeist — but at least it got a response from Paul Graham

    Four more guys! That'll really help scale to a more gender-balanced group of companies!
    I think you're insulting female founders

    Here was my reply, linking off to an excellent interview by Pemo Theodore that also featured Launch Bit founders Jennifer Chin and Elizabeth Yin:

    It’s not a matter of women being “scared off”. Diversifying the people at the top is one of the key steps to getting a more diverse organization. This was an opportunity to do it. YC chose not to.

    In contrast, there’s 500 Startups, where Dave McClure is actively reaching out. Which environment is likely to look more attractive to women entrepeneurs?

    Pemo adds

    Pemo TheodorePaul as a woman I feel a bit offended that you would say this – I think it takes a bit more effort to get women on board because the numbers are smaller. When Bryce Roberts, OATV wanted women to apply for an associate position, he emailed me & asked me to spread the word, which I did. I have been doing a year long project interviewing vcs, angels & women founders on the shortfall of funding for women http://www.ezebis.com/ Recent posts regarding getting women to speak at conferences http://techpresident.com/blog-entry/pdf11-notes-curation & http://www.good.is/post/why-white-men-should-refuse-to-be-on indicate that it just takes a little more effort. I think your response is a reflection of laziness & an attempt to fob the issue off rather than putting some extra effort in to #changetheratio. Really disappointing, considering Jessica says that this is an important issue.”

  28. Do you think attendees of startup weekend are more racist than your average American who voted for Obama?

    Intersectionality and you! The comment’s from the Hacker News discussion of Wayne Sutton’s Two 11-year-old entrepreneurs learned the hard way what it’s like to be a minority in tech during Startup Weekend that’s a very HN-ish combination of racism and ageism and confused thinking masked as rhetorical questions and attacks.

    tl;dr Wayne Sutton confuses lack of interest in conducting srs bzns as racial prejudice/racism

    Coincidentally enough I’m working on a blog post about my own experiences with teen entrepeneurs and diversity at Seattle Startup Weekend (here’s a teaser) … for the purposes of this thread, though, I want to highlight how much information is lost in the HN discussion by not having votes available. There are some very good comments (for example dgabriel’s points about why we’re not in a post-racial society and nkassis’ suggestion of using AppInventor for Android) mixed in with the bad there … what percentage of HN readers see it the way I do? Alas, no good way to know.

  29. Techcrunch logoWhat accounts for the decidedly non-diverse results in places like Silicon Valley? We have two competing theories. One is that deliberate racisms keeps people out. Another is that white men are simply the ones that show up, because of some combination of aptitude and effort (which it is depends on who you ask), and that admissions to, say Y Combinator, simply reflect the lack of diversity of the applicant pool, nothing more.

    The problem with both of these theories is that the math just doesn’t work.

    — Eric Ries, Racism and Meritocracy, TechCrunch>

    Paul Graham responded in the Hacker News discussion by tweeting a link to photos of Rails conferences, and went on to explain

    the lack of diversity Eric Ries perceives in the output of our filter is also present in the input, which implies it's not caused by bias in the filter.

    Well no, not really. As thaumaturgy explains:

    A bias in the input may exist because of a bias -- perceived or actual -- in the filter.


    November 24: on Outlier, Michael W Ellison posted some reflections on Ries’ posts, including

    I was a member of the summer 2011 class of Y Combinator and I can tell you first hand that it was one of the most homogeneous environments I had ever been in. It’s true that there was little diversity in the racial sense but what struck me most was the lack of diversity of backgrounds, attitudes, and personality types.

    Unsurprisingly, folks on HN disagree.


    December 20: in a Bloomberg inverview with Emily Chang, Paul once again described things in terms of a filter:

    Well, I think the problem is upstream from us. I don’t think it’s that, like, huge numbers of women and minorities want to start startups and that we’re filtering them out because they’re not white or men or something like that. I think that the applicant pool, the applicant pool has the same problem that people see in our output, right? The same problem is in our input that people see in our output. The problem is further upstream. The problem is that the pool of startup founders is the people who are messing about with computers at age 13. If you want to fix the problem, that’s what you have to change.

    The guys on Hacker News generally liked this framing, although I wasn’t convinced … and while I appreciated his response, I didn’t find it particularly persuasive.

    What are they doing to broaden the applicant pool?

    I don't think there's anything about our process or reputation that directly discourages people of any gender or race.

  30. Paul Graham: SOPA Supporting Companies No Longer Allowed At YC Demo Day

    Meanwhile, on Hacker News:

    Hacker News with 9 SOPA stories in the top 10

    As Paul Graham said a year ago, explaining his decision to censor stories about the TSA.

    If there’s a road from hacking to politics, it’s probably civil liberties.

    Indeed!

  31. Do you think HN should go dark in protest of SOPA?  Yes: 3123  No: 1243


    January 19:

    No new accounts today

    HN didn’t go dark on January 18, although did put a black box over its logo to show opposition to SOPA. But civil liberties now seem to be a fairly entrenched topic …

    Megaupload, Anonymous taking down DoJ, Rand Paul to filibuster PIPA

  32. Will Hacker News’ new-found awareness of civil liberties translate to more tolerance of discussing the TSA? Early returns are promising. The top story on Hacker News yesterday was Jonathan Corbett’s viral video:

    $1B of TSA Nude Body Scanners Made Worthless By Blog  (548 points)

    And today “Blogger Bob’s” weak response on the TSA Blog is on the front page as well. Here’s how Paul Graham characterized it:

    There is something chillingly unconvincing about their attempts at informality.

    Indeed. Others on the thread make some excellent points too. In fact it’s a very normal Hacker News discussion.

    Looks like the TSA is now on topic 🙂

  33. Hacker News front page, June 6 2013:

    10 stories about NSA spying

  34. As the Snowden revelations continued to get a lot of attention on Hacker News, it appears that Paul Graham has changed the algorithm to penalize stories with NSA in the title. Plenty of stories continue to make it on to the front page, so one way of looking at it is as a workaround for HN’s minimal filtering functionality. ‘krapp makes some excellent points about this as well as the algorithm’s attempt to penalize threads that seem like they’ve degenerated into comment wars (based on the ratio of comments to upvotes):

    That’s as much of a problem as it is IMHO because hacker news doesn’t appear to be designed to handle a wide variety of topics, a broad userbase and complexity of discussion.

    The first is stifled by the lack of metadata (tags, categories, subboards, pick your poison) so everything rises or sinks within the same channel.

    A broader userbase means groups of people who want to see posts about x and others who think x is destroying the community, and the strife caused by what may be the inevitable fact that some users want variety and others want bubbles.

    This leading to the third problem, complex threads which can in practice be composed of more than 40 comments and more comments than upvotes without necessarily being a flamewar. Hacker news appears to be set up to promote upvotes and comments directly to the OP post, and discourage discussion between users. If that’s what their ideal model represents then they should just move to a flat commenting system which makes it more obvious, visually.

    ‘tptacek has been quite a polarizing presence in the NSA discussions: while nobody disputes that he often makes valuable contributions, he’s also seen as stomping down critical viewpoints to the point that quite a few people seem to see him as an NSA apologist. In the process, he’s taken some very strong positions pooh-poohing some of the reports of NSA overreach — positions that haven’t held up well as more information comes out. There was a good example today, after his repeated assertions that the NSA’s “alleged” backdooring of a crypto standard was no big deal in practice, it turned out that the NSA had paid RSA $10 million to make the backdoored crypto system the default. But as znowi said on another thread:

    be careful when you oppose tptacek


    Update, January 2014: there’s also non-algorithmic filtering, for example HN’s policy of killing articles critical of YC companies. As Paul points out (in a heavily-downvoted comment), the guidelines make it clear that while it’s fine to use HN to highlight issues about other companies, YC companies are off-limits. He didn’t phrase it exactly that way of course 🙂

  35. gender distribution of YCombinator founders
    Fireworks! It started when ValleyWag’s Natisha Tiku highlighted a quote from an interview with Paul originally published in The Information. Paul claimed he was misquoted, Michael Arrington joined in, The Information’s Jessica Lessin discussed why they had edited a word out … pass the popcorn!

    Reading the actual transcript, there isn’t a lot new here. The interviewer asked Paul what would be lost if Y Combinator was more proactive about looking for women founders, and Paul’s response was that no, “We can’t make these women look at the world through hacker eyes and start Facebook because they haven’t been hacking for the past 10 years” — where, as he explains in What I Didn’t Say:

    “We” doesn’t refer to society; it refers to Y Combinator. And the women I’m talking about are not women in general, but would-be founders who are not hackers.

    I didn’t say women can’t be taught to be hackers. I said YC can’t do it in 3 months.

    It’s very similar to a discussion from a couple of years ago. YC’s criteria favor “hackers”, who are disproportionately male. Unsurprisingly, this results in YC funding mostly guys. And there’s nothing they can do about it because that’s just the way it is.

    Various comment threads on Hacker News [1, 2, 3, 4, 5] have a range of opinions … well, okay, most of the opinions are what you’d expect, but there are some exceptions, including very good posts by ericabiz and tptacek.

    Ah well. As VC Fred Wilson said in Girls Who Code, the brouhaha’s a good thing because we need to have a a broader discussion. Lauren Kay and Katie Bambino of The Dating Ring (an all-female company that’s jsut starting at YCombinator) make a similar point:

    The current “white male/bro” tech culture is missing out on a lot of great companies – not just from female founders, but from founders of any demographic who are not encouraged to join this often negative, dog eat dog world. Yes, we need large, structural changes, but there are clear changes that can be made at all levels. Although taken out of context, I’m glad that Paul Graham’s quote didn’t go ignored, and is opening up a wider discussion around these issues.

  36. Rose BroomeThe framing is somewhat strange in VentureBeat‘s debate Do incubators have an obligation to actively seek out female hackers?, but Rose Broome of HandUp has a great response:

    But I do think that Graham and other investors have an obligation to account for well-documented gender bias that may show up in their selection process.

    Gender bias is something I don’t see enough discussions about, especially when we’re flaming back and forth about Graham. Research has shown that people rate descriptions of the same leader as more competent when it’s a man.

    This is a big issue in tech, especially given the lack of female executives at tech companies. I wonder, what are people in positions of power doing to account for this unintentional bias?

    And Jon Soberg of Blumberg makes some good points too:

    I think the debate needs to look broadly at women founders, and not focus as much on women hackers…. People should stop thinking about promoting diversity as some sort of “affirmative action” or some type of charity. it is an investment — one with immediate potential returns and definite long term benefits. Multiple studies indicate that companies with women on their boards outperform their male-only competitors.

  37. Danilo Campos’ Explained: why people are angry at Paul Graham is a great analysis. Here’s the conclusion:

    While Graham shoves his hands in his pockets, real people are trying to make their mark on the world. They’re finding their progress in technology undermined by the frustrating fact that their paths look very different from Zuckerberg’s. Graham’s success has elevated him to a position of influence. In this case that influence is, even if inadvertently, impeding progress.

    These public remarks justify a reality that feels pretty unfair to a lot people. Worse yet, they confirm fears that investors are pretty out of touch with the challenges faced by technologists who aren’t young men.

    That’ll piss you off.

  38. daywefightback

    Score one for civil liberties and Hacker News!

  39. Sam Altman for President

    Congrats to Y Combinator’s new president Sam Altman!

    I don’t know a lot about Sam. He founded Loopt, a YC/Sequoia startup which raised $30M and was eventually acquired for $45M. In 2009’s Five Founders, Paul listed him as one of the “five most interesting founders of all time” and said “What I learned from meeting Sama is that the doctrine of the elect applies to startups.” Good to know.

    In a quick search, the only thing I found on Sam’s views about diversity was in Advice to startups, where he suggests

    68. Don’t have a diverse culture in the early days.

    Hmm. To me this seems to reserve the biggest rewards for the initial non-diverse folks (who typically get the richest options). And once you have a non-diverse culture, it gets increasingly harder to become diverse later. Look at YC: when it’s time to recruit new partners, they’re mostly guys; and when it’s time to recruit a a new president, it’s a guy.

    Still, it’s just once guideline out of a long set. Perhaps it will turn out that diversity is part of what Paul means by YC’s growth, and Sam’s just the guy to do it. Time will tell.

    And in the short term, it’s probably a signal that it’s close to time to wrap up this interminable thread 🙂

    Update, October 2016: Here’s the current version of Sam Altman, as profiled by Tad Friend in the New Yorker

    * along with Steve Jobs, Larry Page and Sergey Brin, Cypress Semiconductor’s TJ Rodgers, and Paul Buchheit of FriendFeed (and gmail) … Hey wait a second, I’m noticing a pattern here!

  40. Women 2.0In an interview on Women 2.0, Jessica Livingson points to the current class as the most diverse yet:

    Just last week we just kicked off the YC winter ‘14 funding cycle. It is the most diverse in lots of ways actually. I don’t want people to think I’m saying, ‘look at us, we’re so great! We’ve made an effort to be more diverse!’ It’s not that at all. This batch happens to be the most diverse. There are 22 different countries represented, and countries we’ve never funded people from, like Romania, Bulgaria, Sudan, Egypt. 22% of the startups in this batch have a female founder. Again, it’s not 50-50; it’s not perfect, but it’s the most we’ve ever had. There’s also the oldest founder as well as the youngest founder we’ve ever funded in this particular batch.

    Given that you didn’t do anything dramatically different recruiting this class, does the greater diversity just reflect the changing applicant pool?

    All I think that this suggests is that startups are becoming a more mainstream thing to do. It’s not just for computer science majors. It’s becoming an option for lots of people.

    True, and a good thing. On the other hand, it’s not 50-50; it’s not even close. So, maybe they should consider doing something dramatically different. [Update, March 3: See Shanley Kane’s and Kevin Marks’ graphics below for two different views of this data.]

    And one of the upshots from the end-of-the-year brouhaha was YC’s Female Founders Conference. Jessica Livingston described the goal “to inspire women to start (or hang in there with!) a startup through the insights and experiences of those who have done it already.” I watched a couple of presentations, which were quite good. Role models and a support system are very good things, so kudos to YC for doing this. On Hacker News, though, there was the predictable sniping [1, 2, 3]. Ah well.


    March 3: Tracy Lee Lawrence’s Good Founders Have Unapologetic Confidence + Tenacity has some additional data from Jessica’s keynote about the distribution of YC female founders:

    34.5% of YC female founders have significant others for cofounders – This was a powerful statement (an anecdotal stat from her knowledge of YC founders, she admits), because it signals a changing forecast of the future composition of founding teams. She points out that while men in tech tend to start companies with other men who are their friends/peers from school, women often don’t have that personal network of engineers. An increasingly powerful source of technical talent for women is in their family and significant others.

  41. The 'No Boys Allowed' Dilemma: Thoughts on YC’s Female Founders Conference

    Marianne Bellotti of Exversion shares her perspectives of the day in The ‘No Boys Allowed’ Dilemma: Thoughts on YC’s Female Founders Conference, starting with this:

    I did not anticipate that none of the male partners of YC would be in attendance, nor would any of the male alumni.

    That seemed like a weird choice. I was under the impression that the goal of this conference was to reach out to female founders, to increase YC’s ability to support them and to turn them into YC’s advocates. But how can YC hope to do that if 75% of the leadership is not in attendance? As fun as it might be to sit among so many female founders and gawk at the diversity in skills, interests and backgrounds of women in tech (and it was), at the end of the day every woman in the room has to go back into our male-dominated industry and deal with the boys … who still don’t know her and still do not take her seriously because they missed the opportunity YC could have given them to meet her.

    It was a stark contrast to reports of YC’s Startup School where PG and Sam Altman hold office hours.

    I wanted to scream out “HEY! We want a seat at the table, not a special table off to the side away from most of the decision makers and influencers.”

    Yeah really.

    After making some interesting points about Jessica Livingstone’s keynote, Marianne goes on to highlight several excellent talks and panels including from Kathryn Minshew of The Muse, Diane Green of VMWare, Ann Johnson of Interana, and Jessica Mah of Indinero. [YC’s got a detailed wrapup on their blog.]

    Marianne’s conclusion:

    A good first effort with lots of worthwhile content, but I think before doing a repeat next year YC really needs to clarify what the purpose of this conference is?

  42. YC’s graph, annotated and tweeted by Shanley Kane:

    And here’s another view of the same data, tweeted by Kevin Marks, from his spreadsheet of YC female founders

  43. Two zebrasBoth of those graphs show up in Ellen Chisa’s YC Female Founders Conference. Ellen attended the conference; her reaction:

    On the whole, I’d say “it was okay,” and not because I’m damning with faint praise.

    Half was great. Half the content was exciting. I learned some great lessons that would have been applicable to any founder, not just a female one. If you get a chance to go see Adora Cheung or Diane Greene talk, do! … The attendees were also great. It was great that many of the attendees were technical….

    Unfortunately, the content about being female made me pretty uncomfortable. Going in, I was worried the conference was a PR move because of the recent bad press. It did touch on that a bit, but that wasn’t a big deal. The bigger issue was that there was a definite lack of awareness….

    Please bear in mind that this is not meant to be a critique of the people involved. It’s a critique of the ideas presented. I’m grateful that Jessica and the YC team took the time to organizer the conference and prompt these conversations.

    Ellen makes some very good points about a few aspects of the discussions, and concludes

    So, I’d go to the event again. I wish the industry was far enough along that I was writing about clever lessons I learned and was coming back to apply. Unfortunately, it’s not. The YC Female Founders conference made me realize how far we still have to go.

  44. Paul’s planning on checking out of HN fairly soon. Before he leaves, though, he’s introducing a new crowdsourced moderation approach he calls “Pending comments“:

    From now on, when you post a comment, it won’t initially be live. It will be in a new state called pending. Comments get from pending to live by being endorsed by multiple HN users with over 1000 karma. Those users will see pending comments, and will be able to endorse them by clicking on an “endorse” link next to the “flag” link.

    Someone who has a pending comment will have to wait till it goes live to post another. We’re hoping that good comments will get endorsed so quickly that there won’t be a noticeable delay….

    Along with the change in software will come a change in policy. We’re going to ask users with the ability to endorse comments only to endorse those that:

    1. Say something substantial. E.g. not just a throwaway remark, or the kind of “Yes you did, No I didn’t” bickering that races toward the right side of the page and no one cares about except the participants.

    2. Say it without gratuitous nastiness. In particular, a comment in reply to another comment should be written in the spirit of colleagues cooperating in good faith to figure out the truth about something, not politicians trying to ridicule and misrepresent the other side.

    People who regularly endorse comments that fail one or both of these tests will lose the ability to endorse comments. So if you’re not sure whether you should endorse a comment, don’t. There are a lot of people on HN. If a point is important, someone else will probably come along and make it without gratuitous nastiness.

    It’s an interesting experiment. Hacker News doesn’t provide any good way of filtering comments so cutting down on the number of “throwaways” can make the browser experience better. Cutting down on nastiness can make it a more positive environment; and if nastiness against women is one of the significant things that’s keeping women from participating, that could help diversity.

    There are certainly potential downsides to this. Given the gender distribution on HN, it means that it’s mostly guys who will determine which comments are seen by everybody. It’s another barrier to relative newcomers, and might create a cycle where it’s hard for new people to get their comments seen which in turn keeps them from getting enough karma to participate — and so it creates another barrier to diversifying the population. And it could give “the old guard” another way to shut down unpopular topics or views (like women in technology, the NSA, or feminism).

    So, we shall see …


    March 23: on Medium, non-HNer Jonas Wisser shares some thoughts. His conclusion:

    The people with the power to endorse and ignore comments are the people with the most deeply vested interest in Hacker News continuing as it has up to now. People who see significant problems with the Hacker News community, whether they’ve been quiet members of Hacker News for years or they’re just joining, have no power to voice their opinions without the active endorsement of multiple Hacker News oldsters…. [T]o me, it seems like it will result in more of the same, but with less dissent.

    As I said, we shall see.


    March 26: An update from Paul. Some great comments, for example this from britta:

    I’m concerned that giving comment-approval power to people with x amount of karma will reinforce many of the existing problematic aspects of HN instead of opening it up to better discussion. It means that people with currently-underrepresented voices will have to “play nice” with the current mainstream of HN in order to be represented on the site.

    For example, discussions here already have a pattern of being mostly men, and most people with significant amounts of karma are men – I don’t know the data here, but I don’t think that’s a controversial observation. If you’re a woman who is new to HN and trying to explain your work experience as a woman in a relevant thread, right now you can give commenting an honest effort and know that everyone can at least read your words and consider them. But under pending comments, instead women will have to write comments that men approve before those women’s comments are even visible.

    The pending comments system seems worryingly likely to reinforce HN’s existing systemic biases in silent/hidden ways that will be hard to analyze and improve after implementation.

    And from saurik:

    I think it is very important to not discount the emotional complexity of forcing someone into a position where their comments must be “endorsed” by a group of people they are perceiving as “hostile” to them.

  45. In What I’ve Learned From Female Founders So Far, incoming YC President Sam Altman discusses what he after tweeting a question to female founders about what YC could be doing better. Kudos to him for asking — and for listening!

    One of the most consistent messages was that we need to make it clear that we care about the issue and want to fund more female founders. So I’ll say that now: we want to fund more women. And we’ll keep saying this in the outreach we do.

    We want to fund more women because it’s the right thing to do, but we’re not doing this for diversity’s sake alone. We want to fund more women because we are greedy in the good way–we want to fund the most successful startups, and many of those are going to be founded by women.

    Many are also going to be founded by people of different races, different religions, from different countries, straight, gay, in their 20s, or in their 50s. All of those apply to people in the current YC batch. In fact, they all apply to the YC partnership as well. Again, we don’t do this for the sake of diversity. We do it because we want to get the best people, whatever they’re like.

    Well said.

    Sam also summarizes several other messages, like doing more to make women feel welcome (pointing to the lack of women on their web site as an example they’ll fix, and including more women in speaking opportunities as something they’re already doing) and making sure that there are women on all interview tracks.

    Good stuff. Still to be determined how fully YC embraces this attitude and evolves. Model View Culture’s Blameful Post-Mortem summarized Sam’s original request as

    Meet the new boss… the new head of the VC firm responsible for the most actively misogynist tech community on the internet… wonders how they can “encourage” more women to start companies. Lol.

    Does Sam really understand how deeply the existing demographic biases have affected the entire ecosystem? And if so, how will YC deal with it?

  46. The post dropped off Hacker News REALLY fast. Like, in 20 minutes. Was it modded down?

    2014-03-26_1355

    A classic example of “neutral” algorithmic choices squeezing out marginalized views … Hampton Catlin’s Goodbye Firefox Marketplace discusses why he and his husband are boycotting Mozilla in response to their appointing a new CEO who gave money to a (temporarily-successful) campaign to strip legal rights from gays and lesbians. It was on the Hacker News front page for a while, as was another discussion of the issue, and then suddenly the threads dropped to the third and fourth pages. Presumably they ran afoul of the flame war detector because of the number of comments, or a bunch of people with enough karma to flag it saw the topic as “too political”.

    Modding down our article on Hacker News is only burying any dissent to Brendan's appointment. Way to make us forget again…


    March 27: Here’s a follow-on thread.


    April 4: Solipsys has a useful collection of all the HN threads related to the Eich-as-CEO controversy. Here’s the comments on Eich’s resignation on Hacker News: [1, 2, 3].

    Compare and contrast with Slashdot; Reddit [1, 2]; Ars Technica; Kara Swisher’s article in Re/Code; the Washington Post; Marc Andreessen‘s replies on Twitter; The Guardian, Conor Freiersdorf in The Atlantic; Boing Boing (using Discourse); Wired; ABC; The Verge; Yahoo (5000 comments!); NPR; CNET; ZD Net; Business Insider; Facebook-driven comments on TechCrunch, VentureBeat, the Mercury News; and Quora [1; 2].

  47. I for one welcome our new YCombinatorial overlords!
    Meet the People Taking Over Hacker News introduces the people taking over the various aspects of HN from Paul: Daniel as moderator, Niko coding, Kevin on design, … hey wait a second, I’m seeing a pattern here. YC Director of Outreach Kat will be representing the YC perspective along with partner Gerry; otherwise, it’s boys boys boys. On HN, tptacek and tokenadult are enthusastic about Daniel, and he certainly seems like a thoughtful guy with a wide range of intersts who wants to improve the site. Still, if they’re really looking to make HN and YC more attractive to women, it’s a big missed opportunity.

  48. My title was intentionally, “Is the Oculus Rift sexist?”

    — danah boyd, Is the Oculus Rift sexist?

    I changed the title to be less provocative because, even though both you and the author make a reasonable case for it, I fear that it’s too much for the thread to bear. Too many comments are about the title as it is—but at least we’re doing ok on civility!

    — dang, Virtual reality affects men and women differently, on Hacker News

    Hmm. Does a guy replacing a woman’s intentionally-provocative words really make the place more attractive to women?

  49. In An Update on Comments, dang points to a couple of experiments that he sees as working: intervening in threads with feedback, and tuning the algorithms to “make some downvotes more powerful” (no details on which).

    Here’s an intervention on a thread about upcoming Obama’s visit to YC:

    Please ensure that whatever opinion your comment expresses, it points in a thoughtful, non-reflexive direction.

  50. Hmm, didn't see this one coming: Quora will be joining the next YCombinator batch.  Quora CEO Adam D'Angelo talks about why:

    • We'll have Sam and all the other partners to help us.
    • We get to be part of the YC community / alumni network of founders.
    • We get access to all the resources of YC.

    On TechCrunch, Adam tells Josh Constine that YC invested an amount similar to their standard $120K (which would be about 0.013% ownership).  Josh also has some interesting thoughts about the potential value to Quora and to YC. 

    Hard to see how this will help Quora with the diversity challenges, though.

    (Cross-posted in Life Imitates Art Imitates Life?)

  51. They're certainly saying some good things …

    "We need to think long term about how to get a broader set of people to start start-ups," Altman said. "I think Michael is going to be a great driver of this. He is such a role model."

    A report in 2010 by CB Insights found that fewer than 1% of venture capital-backed Internet companies were founded by African Americans.

    "I wish that all other venture funders thought about this the way we do," Altman said. "In the meantime, we have this incredible competitive advantage because no one else is doing this."

     

  52. I took a week or so off checking news sites over the holidays, which was quite refreshing. When I went back to Hacker News on January 2, the top two links were both by Paul Graham: Economic Inequality and The Re-fragmentation. Nothing like starting the year off on a good note!

    Holly Wood’s Paul Graham is Still Asking to be Eaten* is a much better version of the response I would have written if I had decided to make the effort. She summarizes:

    About 80% of his essay about economic inequality is a thinly veiled condemnation of poors who Paul Graham thinks are too stupid to understand why the rich are wealthy. They are stupid, he says, because they demand wealth redistribution as a means of addressing poverty rather than attacking poverty itself. Sillies!

    He offers these hopeless poors a corrective, modeling himself as a legitimate wealth producer different from those dirty Wall-Street rent-seekers….

    Graham never addresses how a startup economy would put men like Paul Graham in positions of plutocratic authority, since the majority of us are deprived of startup capital without first submitting ourselves to the judgment of people like Paul Graham. It might not be overtly rent-seeking, but it’s definitely not democratic.

    We should worry about an American future that would first have to pass through the judgment filter of men like Paul Graham.

    Yeah really. It’s a great essay, well worth reading in its entirety. Here’s another excerpt:

    In essays like this, men like Paul Graham are trying to impose their warped interpretation of value upon the rest of us. With their reach considerable larger than any college professor, men like Paul Graham ape expertise in an effort to get us to believe that the best society is one where men like him determine legitimacy.

    He assumes people who are not rich are not driven, and so he ignores in this odd little essay the probability that the poors are poor because they are busy being driven at enterprises people like Paul Graham think are valueless.

    Like childcare. Or science. Or academia. Or education. Or really any industry Paul Graham says shouldn’t have unions because they should be crushed beneath the black boot of market efficiency to create value for people like Paul Graham.

    Indeed. Like I said, a much better version of what I would have written if I had made the effort.

    Instead, though, I decided to take it as a sign that it’s time for me to rethink my relationship with Hacker News. I’ve had some interesting discussions there, and it’s still the best source of links about software engineering and startups but it’s just not worth it. Quibb‘s got good content on the entrepreneurial side, and to be honest I’ll probably survive just find without seeing posts every single day about the lastest Javascript framework, functional programming techniques, and tradeoffs between NoSQL and Postgres. I often take advantage of the beginning of the year to step back and look at where I get my news. So thanks, Paul, for the timely essay.

    Update: more context here in Buzzfeed

    * The title’s a reference to her poem, Paul Graham is asking to be eaten

  53. This one doesn’t directly relate to either civil liberties or diversity but it’s still mighty entertaining …

    A few months ago, YC started up “Apply HN”: public applications on Hacker News for YC Fellowships. Maciej’s one-line application for Pinboard got the most votes by far, and the comments were overwhelmingly positive. YC added in a second round of voting and discussion; once again, Pinboard ran away with it. So then they decided to add in an additional screen: a phone call from Kevin, the guy running the Fellowship program. Kevin came away from his call with Maciej feeling “uncomfortable” and so they decided not to choose Pinboard. What a surprise.


    Update, May 6:: YC apologized and decided to award Maciej the $20K; he in turn asked that it be donated to the SF Coalition on homelessness.

  54. In the tech community, the news about Peter Thiel's donation to Trump immediately sparked a question: what about Peter's part-time position at Y Combinator?  

    Elsewhere, there was a lot of discussion — especially when first Paul and then Sam said they wanted to keep their friend Peter around.*   Here's what it looked like on YC:

    There sure is a lot of flagging here … it's almost like some people don't want talk about it and they're able to keep the story buried! 

    I appealed one of the flagged threads to the moderators, who declined to intervene, and pointed me to chief moderator 'dang's statement in response to 'pesenti's question Is flagging down YC/Thiel/Trump stories on HN a form of censorship?

    "Are flags censorship" isn't an interesting question because it isn't factual. "Censorship" is a pejorative that indicates you don't like something—so if a story you liked was flagged, it was 'censored', and if you disliked the story, then it was 'moderated', 'curated', or some such. The factual aspect, that user flags cause stories to fall in rank, is the same either way.

    We reduce or turn off flags on YC-related political stories for a very specialized reason: the community's trust in HN is its most important asset and we don't want to jeopardize that. It doesn't make those stories and threads any better for HN than the usual flamewars; it means that the cost of letting those flames burn hotter than usual is smaller than taking risks with the community's trust.

    At some point, though, enough is enough. For the latest barrage of political stories we should probably revert to normal moderation practice, unless significant new information appears.

    A lot's happened in the two weeks since then but stuff still keeps getting flagged and the moderators keep not intervening.  Not one of HN's prouder moments. 

    * on Twitter, 'tptacek (who's shown up quite a few times on this thread) offered Maciej 2000-1 odds that Sam would change his mind about Peter; and Paul blocked DHH.  Pass the popcorn!

     

  55. Political Detox Week – No politics on HN for one week

    Unsurprisingly, ‘tptacek thinks it’s a great idea.

    There’s a lot of pushback in the comments. Here’s mine, a response to lead moderator ‘dang.

    Nitasha Tiku has more in Silicon Valley’s Most Popular Forum Bans Stories About Politics on Buzzfeed, with some fine tweets from Matthew Garrett, Danilo Campos, and Maciej of Pinboard. Meanwhile the discussion on HN went pretty much how you’d expect.


    Update, December 7: ‘idlewords, ‘minimaxir, and I all submitted the story about Trump summoning tech leaders to New York for a meeting because, y’know, it seemed pretty relevant to technology. Of course it got flagged. So did William Gibson’s New York Times op-ed about privacy. ‘ubernostrum meticulously flagged and commented each story that related to politics and got banned as a result, although to his dismay it proved temporary. Good times.

  56. ‘tptacek weighs in! As does adrienne, who says

    I mean, fundamentally my position is the same as Anil Dash’s, in his famous essay: “if your website is full of assholes, it’s your fault.” Trying to separate out “political” from “apolitical” topics is not going to solve the fucking problem. Being better moderators and not letting people be tremendous bigots even if they’re ‘civil’ are the ways to fix the problem. But Hacker News is never, ever going to do that, and i see absolutely no reason why those of us who feel like that’s a problem should absolve them of responsibility for it.

    Speaking of which, Anil’s now CEO of Fog Creek Software!

    note the career path: a year retweeting only women =/> CEO” /></a></p>
<p>But I digress.</p>
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  57. The no-politics “experiment” is over. Here’s ‘dang on what they learned:

    The main thing we learned is that a change like that won’t solve HN’s civility problem, which was the big question we had. But we learned other interesting things too, like that a week is too long for trying out an idea like this. Also, if we say we’re trying out an idea briefly, some people think we mean permanently. Communication on the internet is hard.

    Update, December 11: Here’s my summary of the experiment

  58. A classic HN moment

    Gargron (aka ‘daveid) posted about Mastodon back in January.

    Now, Mastodon’s hot. One of the best articles on it is by Sarah Jeong. Here’s what it looks like on HN:

    [flagged] Mastodon Is Like Twitter Without Nazis, So Why Are We Not Using It? (vice.com)

  59. YC’s summer reading list is up … and it’s got 17 books by guys and 2 by women. You can’t make stuff like this up.

    On HN, filwickers comments:

    If you struggle to get diverse voices inside your field, maybe you should read from diverse voices outside your field. I understand it is hard and I also gravitate towards comfortable reading, usually meaning from people that look like me. This is the problem. Start being accountable to yourself about it.

    Well said.

  60. Here’s another fine HN discussion about diversity. It wound up getting flagged because … actually there’s no reason why it should be flagged other than “people don’t want to talk about it.”

    Update: a few more discussions about the same general topic (the “Google Manifesto”) are equally stereoptypical: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. 8 (flagged after it soared to the top of the home page). Oh and here’s one from me that also got flagged.

  61. […] Software as it is today – and the effect it has on the rest of the world – has largely been shaped by these kinds of patterns.  A huge amount of effort (and zillions of dollars) goes to improving ad targeting, unethical tracking, and blockchain; almost none on countering harassment or providing accessibility.  Sites like Stack Overflow reward arrogance and shaming and exclude women and people of color &#8230. Y Combinator’s founder Paul Graham has a history of sexist statements, and YC’s Hacker News discussion cite is know for misogyny, nativism, and suppressing discussions of diversity. […]

  62. After some classic PG sexism (tweeting an all-male list of “best investors ever”) Lisa Abeyta attempted to give some feedback. Arlan Hamilton summarizes:

    Paul then heard what was being said and apologized … hahaha just kidding! Paul of course reacted defensively.

    Paul. Stop this. You are too smart a person to act like what I was trying to do was underrate Jessica. You are not a victim here. Have a real conversation with me. Don’t hide behind some faux outrage about me underestimating your wife. Me of all people. Come on.

    As Kara Swisher says …
    Shocker. Papier-mâché is less delicate than the aggrieved sensibilities of pampered Silicon Valley VCs. They had become so used to being licked up and down all day that a simple criticism sends them into a faint so extreme that there aren’t enough smelling salts in the world.

    Here’s Arlan’s video followup:

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